12. Desensitizing the Fear of Money: An Interview with Beth Montgomery
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Host: Lindsey Ciarrocca Guest: Beth Montgomery
Lindsey: Welcome to another episode of the Money Clarity Podcast. I am your host, Lindsey Ciarrocca, and today I have my very first special guest with us, Beth Montgomery.
Beth actually reached out to me just as I was at the very beginning stages of starting The Exuberant Elephant. And in fact, she was my very first coaching client under that business. So, I am very excited to have her here as my very first guest on the podcast. Welcome!
Beth is a certified death doula, an elder care doula, and an end-of-life care planner. And I’ll let her take a minute to introduce herself and tell us what all that means.
Beth: Hello! Thank you for having me. And how auspicious is it that I was one of your first clients and the first podcast guest? I’m your biggest fan.
I am a death doula by nature, which is a fancy word for: I help people get comfortable with the topic of death, dying, and grief. And it’s one of those things that I didn’t wake up and feel like I wanted to be in the death care industry. I was actually terrified of death and dying.
Lindsey: Mm-hmm.
Beth: And when it finally happened to me—I witnessed a death—I was like, "Oh, I need to figure out what this whole thing is so that it doesn’t happen to anyone else." So, I help walk people through pre-planning, like what they want their end to look like, as well as getting them organized to get them over to people like you, Lindsey. I walk alongside them as they die and transition, and their families, and then with their loved ones that are left behind to walk with them through grief.
Lindsey: That’s beautiful. Yeah, thank you. Like you said, you didn’t wake up wanting to do that. I’ve talked about it on this podcast before, too, that I didn’t wake up wanting to be a budget nerd, but here we are. We all kind of end up where we’re supposed to for whatever reasons, right?
Beth: Uh-huh.
Lindsey: So, Beth and I actually met back in 2017, I think it was, and at that time she was actually also in a branch of financial services. So, speaking of the whole finding your path to where you’re meant to be, we all have our own ways of getting to where we’re meant to be. But we hit it off, we kept in touch over the years, and we even partnered on a few projects.
But it wasn’t until the end of 2020—I think I looked back at the date, it was December 16th, which is almost five years to the day—December 16th, 2020, you reached out to me and asked for help with budgeting. So, do you remember what was going on for you at that point? What was kind of the tipping point for you when you were like, "I need help"?
Beth: Oh yeah, sure. Well, we all remember the pandemic very well, very clearly. I had gone through a couple of different jobs and career changes at that point, and I was with a company that would give me money. Like, I had more money than I knew what to do with. And I was like, "I need to do something with this money so that it doesn’t just go away. I need to tell my money where to go." I just didn’t know where to put it. And now I had this extra money, and now I didn’t know what to do with it, and I was scared of it, you know?
So, I remember having that little moment of clarity. I also had just gotten newly sober and clean in July of that year.
Lindsey: Congrats!
Beth: So, I had a clear head. I was looking at my kids, and we were at home, and I had all this money, and I was like, "Uh..." And some of the things that we practice is like asking for outside help—asking for help in general and not being shy about it and not being ashamed about it. Because for a long time as a single mother, I felt like I had to put on the facade that I was doing well, I was doing okay, I was doing great, that nothing was wrong. Like, "It’s fine, everything is fine, I have everything taken care of," because there’s this ego thing that happens, right?
And so, I trusted you enough because I heard you talking and I knew you and Scott, and I knew you wouldn’t be judgmental, even though the fear was still there of the shame, the embarrassment, you know. I just wanted to keep it secret, but I couldn’t do it anymore. So, I was looking at my two kids, we were all working from home essentially, I had this clear head, I had all this money, and I’m like, "If I don’t put it somewhere nice, it’s going to go away." And I needed to get more comfortable with the fact that I had more money—abundance, you know? Like, there’s sometimes where it’s greater, there’s sometimes where it’s less. When you work for yourself, it’s like a roller coaster ride, right?
Lindsey: Mm-hmm.
Beth: And so, when I finally reached out, it was one of those things that was nagging in the back of my brain, probably rolling around there since like 2018.
Lindsey: Oh, wow.
Beth: Because I remember doing a TEDx talk and I remember during that time specifically being like, "I should probably call Lindsey to see what I should do with this money." You know, so I sat on it for years, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you had other clients that said the same thing.
Lindsey: Yeah, probably. Yeah, because it’s not uncommon that, like you said, you’re scared of it. You don’t want to... I had somebody explain it to me once: they don’t want to air their dirty laundry to somebody. It’s a scary thing to share your money stories and share the debt you’re in with somebody else.
Beth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lindsey: So, what do you think it was that made you decide to dive in and finally get coaching? What made you choose to work with me?
Beth: So, I had a spiritual mentor, right? A coach that I had paid. I had paid someone else to teach me something, and then I was like, "Why wouldn’t I pay someone to teach me how to take care of money?" Like, nobody ever taught me.
Lindsey: Mm-hmm.
Beth: Like, the only thing that my parents taught me was: save, save, save; don’t spend any money; make sure you pay your bills on time; and don’t forget to treat yourself. And if you hear that language, it’s like, which way am I going?
Lindsey: Right, all different directions.
Beth: Right! Like, what do you want me to do? And their behavior surrounding money was an unhealthy dynamic, and all the dynamics around money were all unhealthy—what I was ingesting, what I was viewing, what I was experiencing, too.
So, when I reached out to you, I remember feeling really, really uncomfortable with the thought of, "Oh gosh, now she’s really going to see behind the curtain." And you know, I wrote down every single thing I spent. You knew all my bad habits, you knew all the things that I was spending my money on, you knew what money was coming in. There were no more secrets.
And in that little truth—that there were no more secrets—that allowed me to be even more vulnerable. And like, that little bit of courage and trusting that this person who I know cares about me is not going to judge me. And then if she does, that’s not on me, you know? But you didn’t. There was never a moment where you were like, "Oh my gosh, I can’t believe you spent however much money on this silly thing." You were just like, "Okay, well how does that feel? Where can we put that in our budget?" What little gamified thing in YNAB... how can we put that in the YNAB button and make it filled? And I was like, "Oh! Like, if I allow, then it’s fine."
Lindsey: Right? Because budgeting is really all about being intentional with your money. Yeah. So, what’s important to me is different than what’s important to you. So, who am I to judge what you deem is important enough to spend your money on? Yeah. Yeah, you chose really good language, I will tell you that. Which is funny because I always hated English in school, too.
Beth: Wow.
Lindsey: I hated English and math and somehow, here I am. But words are very powerful.
Beth: They are.
Lindsey: They are.
Beth: And you gave me that list of affirmations, the money affirmations. And I was like... and I noticed that you started putting them in your newsletters. And I was like, "Oh, that’s awesome!" Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember saying them and they didn’t feel true.
Lindsey: Mm.
Beth: I wanted them so badly to feel true. I pretended like they did feel true. I said them and I was like, "Yeah, I feel abundant," or "Money flows freely to me," but deep down inside there was this stuckness of, "I don’t feel that."
Lindsey: Mm.
Beth: And you know, you did open up this whole cavern of like... beneath the money wound, there is this unworthiness. Not to get too much "out there"—I mean, I am out there, woo-woo, crazy, but like crazy in quotations, but good crazy.
Lindsey: Yeah.
Beth: But there is an energetic level when it comes to money and feeling those affirmations and really embodying those money mindsets of not only being able to ask, but also to receive. And I talk about that too, and I always think about that time with Lindsey, you know, the coaching moments that I had with Lindsey—it all is a big circle.
Being able to embody and heal those wounds inside, we need other people. And so, going all the way back, circling around, I felt safe with you. I knew that I trusted you. I knew your character, your morals, your integrity. And that’s what I wanted. I wanted someone that I could trust because I didn’t really have anyone as a single mom. It was like, it’s you, it’s me and the kids, and I don’t trust the kids, you know? I don’t have a partner, I don’t have a person. I’m doing this on my own. I can’t reach out to my parents, I can’t talk to my friends about it. Like, who talks to their... "Oh yeah, I’m struggling with money"? It’s just really, really hard to do that.
But I was like, I need to talk to someone who knows about it. Because what I’ve learned is: you hire someone so that they can give you the knowledge that they have had so that you can skip all that time. And so, like, I’m a real big learner, so I was like, "Teach me your ways!"
Lindsey: Right? It’s so weird how we feel like it’s weird to pay somebody to help us with our money, but you pay somebody to cut your hair, you pay a doctor, you pay a lawyer, you pay somebody to groom your dog, right? Like, all these services. But it’s weird that it’s about money.
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: Exchange of money to pay for money to help with money. Very weird.
Beth: But it’s knowledge of the money. And I remember specifically, too, there’s a moment in time... so how did it feel for you? I’m going to turn the table on you for a second.
Lindsey: Okay.
Beth: Because this whole energetic money thing... where I remember we had a conversation and you were like, "I’m going to start charging an additional fee, or like a higher fee, for my services." And I was like, "Ooh." And I watched you do it.
Lindsey: Mm-hmm.
Beth: And you embodied it, but you embodied it so well that I didn’t even tap into that at that point. And I didn’t think it was my turn to even ask you about it, like, "How does that feel?" But now looking back—because now it’s been like five years and you’re doing really well and I can see that—it’s great. How does it feel now to be asking your worth, you know, and more, and like jumping up? Because that increase in money is hard.
Lindsey: Yeah, it’s a really interesting question because it’s definitely something that took me time. You know, I hear people, other business owners that I follow, talking about charging your worth, but it’s like you can’t really charge what you’re worth because your worth is invaluable.
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: But on the other hand, you obviously are not a nonprofit. You need to make money. You need to put food on the table. So, how do you charge what’s appropriate for your services? And yeah, it was scary increasing those numbers. And I had even increased my coaching rate again at the beginning of this year, and it took a lot of just that—affirmations, that reassurance that this stuff comes easy to me, but it’s not easy to everybody.
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: So, it’s worth paying somebody to help you get there.
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: You know, I actually have this conversation with my husband all the time. He wants to discount things. I’m like, "No. Like, this is what we’re charging. This is it." Like, if you can’t get behind what you’re charging, how can somebody else get behind it?
Beth: Right, right.
Lindsey: So yeah, it’s probably been five years of my own learning and affirmations of... because I’ve mentioned this before, scarcity has always been one of my big mindset blocks. Because, like you mentioned, being self-employed, there’s no steady paycheck coming in. Both my husband and I are self-employed, so really no paycheck coming in. So, it was always, "Where is the money coming from? Where’s the next paycheck coming from?" So, those affirmations of just reminding myself that, like you said, money flows easily and freely into my life.
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: You know, eventually you say it enough times, you’ll start believing it.
Beth: Yeah, and there’s an interesting thing that happened too. Because "money flows freely into my life," right, is something that I say. But then there’s this interesting dynamic shift that happened because it just became numbers on the screen. I would look at my budget on YNAB and I’d be like, "These are just numbers. I’m just playing with numbers."
Lindsey: I remember you saying that.
Beth: Yeah, like, "What do these numbers mean?" It’s just like... and I’m just playing this little game with the numbers and the imaginary numbers. And the less attention and focus I put on "I don’t have enough money numbers to put into my categories," my mind shift... like, my mind goes into a place of, like, not a good place, and I don’t like to be in that not-good place. I like to be in a place of more positivity.
But it begins to lose its impact and heaviness, right? Because we hold a dollar, we hold money, we hold a $20 bill, and we’re like, "Oh, this money, this is heavy." But then in reality, every month we continue to get more in and we’re taken care of. And the less I stress over it, the more I make, or the more I’m able to freely enjoy, or the more I’m able to freely give.
And then what I realized, too, is the more money I want, the more money I desire, I want more of. And so, being able... that whole YNAB thing... you know, I moved to a good old spreadsheet and pen and paper and switched off of YNAB because I feel like I finally got to what I needed to get to with YNAB.
Lindsey: Nice.
Beth: Like, I needed to see these numbers, get to that end result and just be like, "Oh. It’s not that big of a deal. It’s okay. It’s really fine." You know, I still budget my categories.
Lindsey: I have a lot of people that do that—that they’re scared to look at YNAB, but once they actually look at it, they’re like, "Oh, it actually wasn’t that bad. What was I scared of? Why didn’t I do that before?" It’s really not that bad.
Beth: So if you’re sitting on the fence, you’re listening here, you’re sitting on the fence, you’re like, "Oh, I don’t know. I’m really scared," I totally get it because I was feared up too. And when I’m in the freeze response, I don’t want to do anything. But when I don’t do anything, I can’t change anything. So I find myself stuck. And so many psychologists say we keep going to what’s comfortable even if it’s bad for us, and you’re more than welcome to stay where it’s stuck, you’re more than welcome to stay in that freeze area. But we don’t want to do that. We want freedom, and we want not just to want, but to have. And you can have.
Lindsey: Yeah.
Beth: And don’t let the fee for coaching scare you because the money will come, right? Yeah. The money will come. Yeah, you’ll make it happen.
Lindsey: That’s another exact thing I tell clients all the time—like, you know, your comfort zone is safe, but nothing changes in your comfort zone. Exactly what you just said, right? It’s safe, even if it’s to our detriment.
Beth: Yeah, and that comfort zone gets really small. It slowly starts to get smaller and smaller and smaller, and soon you’re just stuck. At least this was what was true for me. I kept on getting smaller and smaller and smaller until I couldn’t go anywhere. And nothing changes if nothing changes.
Lindsey: Mm-hmm.
Beth: So...
Lindsey: And that’s why I started incorporating a lot of what you’re mentioning, which is the Law of Attraction work. Because what you’re focusing on is what you’re attracting. If your focus is on scarcity, debt, lack...
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: ...then you’re able to let that go, release that a little bit, and focus on, "I found this penny in the parking lot. I want more of that. I want more." And wanting more is not a bad thing.
Beth: No. Yeah.
Lindsey: Yeah.
Beth: And that’s another thing too, especially with those who identify as female: we have a real hard time with wanting money and receiving money or having money.
Lindsey: Having money. Yeah.
Beth: Yeah, that’s a big thing. "Oh, that’s not safe." And from what I understand, men don’t have that. Like, they were born without that gene. They’re like, "Yeah, that’s great. I’m worth this much. Hand me the monies."
Lindsey: Mm-hmm.
Beth: Which is interesting.
Lindsey: But then you look at like the statistics of what happens when women have the money.
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: How much they give back and how much they donate and spread it to others.
Beth: We need a whole new podcast episode for that topic in general.
Lindsey: I know, right? But that is totally all part of my mission—is to get women feeling safe with money so that they can create ripple effects around the world.
Beth: Well, you have done that because, in today’s world, a lot of the conversations I have... so, not only am I a death doula and help families, but I charge an amount that would’ve made me cringe with fear. Okay? I also teach other death doulas how to embody that energy of being able to ask and receive that money that they also do deserve for doing the work that they’re doing.
Lindsey: That’s amazing.
Beth: And so it’s a beautiful thing, and I hear myself saying some of the things that Lindsey told me. I’m like, "Lindsey would be so proud." Yeah. So you’re creating ripples, and then this ripple is creating other ripples, but it’s all because of you. So, thank you so much.
Lindsey: Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So, what does spending and saving with confidence look like in your daily life now?
Beth: Hmm, that’s a really good question. I don’t freeze up whenever I hand over my card. Like, if I go for a grocery run, I know that I have X amount of money. Like, I have to stay within this amount of X amount of monies because it’s just me. Things are different today. I am an empty nester. I shop for myself. I eat like a bird sometimes. I just...
Lindsey: Don’t have a teenage boy in the house.
Beth: No! Like, little charcuterie boards all day. It’s like "girl dinner" every night. And sometimes I’ll make like a big dinner, you know, and I’ll get all the ingredients, but for the most part, there’s no shock or like, "Oh man, do I need to move money over from this to that?" It’s all automatic at this point. It’s just like, "Oh yeah, here. Not a big problem. Oh yeah, here." Because I know the money that’s going out is also that money that’s coming in. I spend freely, so then I receive freely. Like, that’s another affirmation. I’m pretty sure it came from you.
Lindsey: Mm-hmm.
Beth: Yeah. So, I just imagine... in order for me to receive money, I have to spend money. So it’s like... I mean, not to the point where I’m at my last dollar. We want to be responsible about things. But if I’m going to the store and I know that I have the money set aside for it and I didn’t have a really good month as far as income—because I am self-employed and I get a little "ugh," you know—I have a little bit of cushion because I know that I have... "Oh, I can pull from this bucket or I can pull from this fund or I can pull from that." Like, there’s a little bit of wiggle room. I’m not freaking out.
Lindsey: But it’s easy because you know where things are.
Beth: Yeah.
Lindsey: Because you have the clarity.
Beth: Yep.
Lindsey: Love it.
Beth: Love it. Yep. Numbers don’t lie.
Lindsey: Numbers do not lie. Numbers are data. I heard that from somebody else, actually, a couple of years ago. Numbers are data; numbers are not emotional.
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: We make them emotional.
Beth: Oh yeah, and that’s the thing. It desensitized me—that’s the word that I wanted to say. Working with you has desensitized me from the fear around money, from money and receiving money and all that. I could go to a therapist and talk about all of that. I could go to a shaman and talk about all of that. I can go to a healer or a Reiki master or wherever, and I can do that. I can journal about it, I can do moon rituals, I can do whatever. But nothing really helped unless I worked with someone and looked at it square in the face and had someone tell me, "The money is not emotional, it’s just numbers." And I was like, "Wait, what?" Like, you short-circuited my brain back then. I was like, "Excuse me?"
Lindsey: And that’s why I think it’s so important to combine the practical side. Like, you have to know your numbers, but you also have to look at, like you were saying, how you grew up with money and your relationship with it and these blocks that you’re having around the shame and the guilt.
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: So while the numbers themselves aren’t emotional, like I said, we make them emotional and we have to unwire all that to figure out how to get to this desensitivity, like you said.
Beth: Yeah. Subconscious reprogramming all the way.
Lindsey: Mm-hmm. So powerful.
Beth: So powerful. It is... I’m not the same person I was when we first started working together. When it comes to the money mindset, I’m a completely different person. And I could be the poorest I’ve ever been, but the mindset is so different. Just because I know how to work my money now doesn’t mean I have tons of monies in the bank, you know? It just means like, "Oh, okay, this is an interesting time in my bank account. It’s fine. It’s going to be okay."
Lindsey: You just look at it differently and you are grateful for what you do have, right?
Beth: Yeah.
Lindsey: I actually remember a text that you sent me when we were working together about... you woke up this morning to a surprise tax bill and you were able to pay it. You said something about like, "It’s not even about the amount of money, it’s about the mindset. I was able to look at that with gratitude."
Beth: That’s awesome. I wish I had that same mindset with the taxes. I know it gets a little bit... you pay a lot more taxes when you make more money, but oh my gosh.
Lindsey: Yeah. But that’s a whole new level. You get to the point where you’re grateful that you are paying that much in taxes because you are making that much more money.
Beth: Yes. That’s... oh, see, it’s a new mindset. You’re doing it now! Yep. This is a little behind-the-scenes, behind-the-curtains into a moment of what coaching with Lindsey is like.
Lindsey: Yeah, because you stop... you stopped that right there, so, okay.
Beth: Yeah. So, I’m a little bit with gratitude.
Lindsey: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I follow other money mentors as well, and one of them, she says, "New level, same devil." So it’s still a mindset shift, but now it’s like, "Oh, I’m making more money so I have to pay more taxes." But that’s a good thing because you’re making more money. Therefore, you are paying more taxes and that’s just your contribution.
Beth: No, that’s interesting. Mm-hmm. I like that. I like that because it doesn’t matter how much money is in there, it’s the mindset. So like, it’s funny that you say that because I’m like, I don’t care if I’m rich or poor because, perspective-wise, right? Like, my mindset about it is the same. But when I get a bill that’s over $500, when I get a bill that’s a thousand dollars, I’m like, "This is BS. This can’t be happening," you know, like internal error. But it’s all about that mindset. So I’m going to work on that now.
Lindsey: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. So, as you are my very first guest, I can’t say that I ask this to every guest, but I want to close with a question that I will be asking all of my guests. So, like I mentioned, my mission is to help women move past this anxiety and into a space that I like to refer to as financial exuberance.
Beth: Hmm.
Lindsey: So to you, what does living with financial exuberance truly look like, feel like, and allow you to do?
Beth: That’s a beautiful question. I love it. It’s at some point of, like, it doesn’t rule my life anymore. My mind is now free to think about other things, to worry about other things, you know? I’m not so caught up in my worth because of money, what I’m perceived as because of money, what I need to scrimp on because of money. You know, I am able to... I get to. And I love to spend money now.
Lindsey: Mm.
Beth: And before, I couldn’t say that. I can say that with my full chest. I could be like, "Wow, I like spending money," which is so weird to say, but like... not on frivolous things, but like groceries and things that make me feel good. And then to be able to give to my kids, you know? Like, when they ask for money, I’m able to... I can’t give them everything that they’re asking for, but I can give them some without even hesitating. It’s just "here."
And that’s ultimately... I would love to retire my family. Mm. I would love to retire my parents; they’ve worked hard enough. Please retire, thank you very much. I would love to start a fund, like a trust fund for my kids. That’s a "someday" goal, not a "something I have to worry about now" goal. But yeah, that’s all because I worked with you. I will say that.
Lindsey: Well, thank you.
Beth: Mm-hmm.
Lindsey: It has been such an honor. I loved working with you. I love that you were my first client and my first podcast guest and my first person in my new membership. So let this be lots more firsts for us to come. So, thank you so much for being here and for coming on the podcast today.
Beth: Oh, Lindsey, thank you so much for having me. It has been so wonderful growing alongside you. It really has. I can see it. I can see the difference, too. So, that is pretty special.
Lindsey: Yeah.
Beth: You changed me in so many ways, so thank you.
Lindsey: You are so very welcome. Thank you so much for being in my world, and we will talk to you next time.
RESOURCES:
30 Free Money Affirmations: https://www.theexuberantelephant.com/affirmations
The Empowered Money Circle Skool community:
https://www.theexuberantelephant.com/emc
👉🏻 Learn more about Beth's work: https://www.deathdoulabeth.com/
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YNAB Disclosure: I am a YNAB Certified Budgeting Coach, which means that I have been trained to coach people on using YNAB software and the YNAB budgeting method. I have met select requirements of You Need a Budget LLC in order to receive this certification, which means that I have the ability to competently coach YNAB to others. I am not an employee of YNAB, and all non-YNAB related opinions and recommendations are my own. My views do not reflect the views of YNAB and its employees or affiliates.
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